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Subject Organization (TO&E) for SADF Units
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chrisswim
Posts:21
Posted:1/12/2010 10:10:52 PM
Johan,
What is the organization (TO&E) for those units for the fighting vehicles, infantry?
[Is it 3   APCs per platoon, and 3 platoons + 1 cmd for company, for 1:1 basis..??]
thank you, chris


johansamin
Posts:679
Posted:1/12/2010 10:26:16 PM
Chris, I have just recently created TO&Es for 32
battalion, 61 Mech Bn Gp and 4 SA Infantry (Also a Mechanised Bn) and loaded them under the Units section of the WarInAngole.com website... see http://www.warinangola.com/Default.aspx?tabid=667

These are based on the actual organigrams that I was trained with in 1984 and was typical of similar units, although the attachments often varied depending on the circumstances.... but essentially there are 4 APCs per Platoon (1 for each section of three sections of ten men each and then a separate APC for the Platoon Leader and his team). Each Company then had at least three Platoons like this and the Company Commander and Company 2IC each had an APC (sometimes the 2iC was not present or did not have a separate vehicle, but it was standard procedure to separate the command elements in their own vehicles). Each Company therefore had at least 13-14 APCs and the Bn Commander's teams would have 3 -4 Command APCs So you can see SADF units were quite command heavy but that contributed to the flexibility of subunits at ground level.

Regards

Johan


chrisswim
Posts:21
Posted:1/12/2010 10:32:09 PM
Sounds similar to US,
i.e. our tanks is 4 tanks to platoon, and 3 platoons plus commander and XO [executive officer (2nd in command)] each having a tank.  Mech Inf, similar, so a cross attachment of a platoon could take place and the company commander still has 3 platoons. 
The Challenger Rules in their TO&E booklet has 3 vehicles[Ratel 20s] to platoon, 3Ptn of 3 + 1 commander [ratel command with machine gun turret] for company. Which is how I have played it for years, late or mid 1990's, dang you messing me up like that.  You go and tell the military leadership that they need to go change all their training and historical literature....  I then frequently would add Ratel ARV (20) and perhaps a Ratel 60 with ATGM team to dismount....an AA vehicle, then 3 Ratel 90s.
About 8-10 years ago, I read an article on SADF targeting of arty and mortars by laser, and it provided some probability of hits and kills/damaged.  I then mulitplied it out to have a 'net' kill of a 81mm mortar to knock out a heavy tank.  It was like .04 or .06 [4% or 6%] chance to kill a Leopard 2A4.  Of course, my German opponent did not have laser mortars since I did not tell him, just to expect something....  I have missed placed the article, too bad. Several countries apparently have that technology, do not know who has deployed and to what level of deployment. With the US having predators with hellfire to hit/kill targeted back in the states...would one need mortars.  Well, yes, being on the scene and a predator not airbourne in your area would stink.
I will take a look at your info link.  Thank you [hope you did not mind my antodotal commentary]
chris


johansamin
Posts:679
Posted:1/13/2010 10:35:37 PM
Hey... I love it, thanks Chris! lol

In fact I am going to have to repost these on the forums..... maybe we can get some ex SADF high  brass to comment!...;-)

As to the laser technology... yes we had it.... got it from the Israelis, I believe, but we used lasers as OPOs mostly for exact distance deterrmination. As for operational deployement, we normal OPOs on the ground never used one... maybe because of its intelligence sensitivity if it were to be captured. It is possible that some of our high brass, like the Director of Artillery that time, Colonel Laubscher, might have used it during his bit of live target practice during his visit during Op Moduler....

I am not aware of the 81mm mortars having had ANY access to such technolgy, and certainly not operationally. Our 81mm mortar is essentially an infantry weapon, unlike the 120mm which is an artillery weapon, where we were more likely to utilize laser technology. Also bear in mind the bushy terrain of our type of warfare.... no sense in using lasers when you can only see a couple of 100 metres! Of, course as a static OP, I was deployed on a bit of high ground and could see every bush (Alas not every vehicle UNDER the bush...lol) for at least 15km! Laser distance measurement would have been quite useless for me, though, as the maps we were using were hopelessly inaccurate, being old Portuguese topographical maps (I seem to remember that my map was dated 1966!!!)

As to a more modern SANDF force, certainly the technology and weapons are available... If only we had Rooivalke and Rooikatte, and Bateleurs, and the new G-6 that can fire projectiles as far as 67+ kms!!!! As it is the G-5 and G-6, and even the Valkiri MRL, and of course, the Ratel ZT3 were revolutionary in their impact on our battle doctrine and fighting capability!

It would be very interesting if you COULD find that article on the SADF use of lasers...

Regards

Johan


Pippo
Posts:33
Posted:1/18/2010 8:15:10 PM

Hi Johan
Today we played the attack on Cuvelai. It was a bloody disaster! One of our mikstakes was that we didn't played carefuly, as South African, but rather rashly as Japanese kamikaze would...


Anyway, my question is:
How were your infantry sections organized? We've divided each section (7 men) in two fireteams, one with support weapons, the other one with assault rifles. Is this correct or would your sections work without fireteams?

Take care
Filipe



johansamin
Posts:679
Posted:1/20/2010 9:02:46 PM

Filipe, it sounds typically what we have experienced. The SA playere generally seems to have the impression that SA soldiers are either invincible or simply lead charmed lives.... unfortunately if that were true, it is not and CAN not be reflected in the rules.... So the South Africans die!


I am starting to see why we had to undergo all that training, and especially the Staff course for Majors which was normally a year in duration, before they would be considered for a command post of a unit. This is normally after at least five+ years full time!


Maybe we should design a Staff course for SA Wargamers which will teach them some caution! Has nobody heard of "vuur-en-beweging" (fire-movement)? The SA player needs to plan his movent with half a foce moving in in alternating bounds while the non-moving force observes and/or supports with fire. This does slow down an attack, but sure keeps the casualties low! Also remember that the SADF player should be penalised for any losses, as we were always under the "lose no men, lose no equipment - achieve all objectives" policy!


As to the exact organization of a rifle company - accordoing to my old "Algemene gevegshanteringsbundel" (General Combat Control Manual), a rifle company is defined as follows (roughly translated):


There are three rifle companies in the battalion, numbered A, B, and C. Each company comprises of a company headquarters, which includes a 60mm mortar section with three mortars, and three rifle platoons. A rifle platoon is further divided in a platoon headquarters and three 10-man sections. A section is further divided into a machine gun group and a rifle group. The company headquarters also carry three 89mm or RPG-7 rocket launchers (without crews) which can be allocated to the platoons when needed.


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Images from 'Grensoorlog' series, produced by Linda de Jager, reproduced with kind permission from MNET
Images from 'Grensoorlog' series, produced by Linda de Jager, reproduced with kind permission from MNET
Images from 'Grensoorlog' series, produced by Linda de Jager, reproduced with kind permission from MNET
Images from 'Grensoorlog' series, produced by Linda de Jager, reproduced with kind permission from MNET
Images from 'Grensoorlog' series, produced by Linda de Jager, reproduced with kind permission from MNET

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